ArtSpots Forum Topic - Thinking on Reapplying.

Whisper Panthress

Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:18:42 -0000

Hi Slip, I haven't received the email but like Naryu said don't get discouraged by rejection. It helps to find some common souls or people who've succeeded after rejection. http://www.cgsociety.org/ or conceptart.org are good places to go to. The guilt and negative feelings you should allow yourself to feel is when you haven't "drawn enough". That will help you improve and to give yourself self encouragement.

Naryu

Tue, 25 Dec 2007 21:58:44 -0000

All I can say is DONT BE DISCOURAGED! I got rejected twice, and each time.. (heh oh how I wish I could take it back 9_9) I got pretty pissed and depressed. It turns out that I was applying with that whole "yerf" mindset, that my pieces weren't fully rendered enough, the lighting was off etc. If anything that this was the exact OPPOSITE. (I well realize this too is a case by case basis, but the 'base of it all' is still the same) I'm not a Cheetah, but I can vouch for this bit of information, that they want to see that every artist has the 'basics' down and that this place- isn't meant to intimidate, but to help artists grow to a new potential. Without the encouragement most likely I wouldn't have dived into using illustrator the way i did now :)

Slipstreme

Tue, 25 Dec 2007 16:27:49 -0000

KoOkY! said:
Whisper Panthress said: Hi Slipstreme. I will not get into too much editing as I need to go out soon. Apologies if this is lengthy or not very sensible. But I think it's great you want to reapply, try and learn. And if your goal is to get in here and learn, I agree with the advice Rous provided. It will help, especially about practice. If you draw a lot of something it shows, as there is simplification and feel. I also feel that it is important to keep a positive outlook on things. snip
Well put advise Whisper Panthress, I got something out of that myself too even though not directed to me. Though I always thought some level of self debasement is helpful. I get really down on my art and abilities and vocalize them, and some people have said that artists just say they suck in order to get the, "Nooo you're wonderful!" type comments though truly not the case here. I really do think I stink. :) But because I'm comparing myself to the artist that I want to be instead of the doodler that I am. I've seen a lot of artists just stagnate because they've stopped pushing themselves and can get by with mediocre work because they're surrounded by people telling them how great they are. So always need that little voice inside your head saying that you can do better. Hehe.

My problem is that that voice can get pretty nasty, and all I will see are the mistakes. It often gets to the "you will never be good enough, or you will never get better" stage, which IMO does more harm than good. Because once you start believing it you start doing it. (in this case not improving) It is a battle I have been working on and will probably continue working on throughout my life. Whisper I will send you an email. But no I figured I would type out the problems I have, but thankfully I have been combating them, mostly because self depreciation often leads to depression, stress and ultimately failure, whether that is loosing hope or giving up or other not good things, which has been proven to shorten the lifespan. Something I don't intend on doing is dying early because of the self prison I have erected around myself over the years,by starting to believe what others have said about me (long hard childhood, probably similar to that of most social outcasts).

Whisper Panthress

Tue, 25 Dec 2007 12:37:42 -0000

Slip, I have a lot of thoughts about your reply but think it's better in an email. I can get wordy. i can be reached at my gmail under pikamoon Kooky: Hehe, I learned the hard way self debasement is NOT useful. I have off days where nothing but crap comes out. And I have the proof, from others in the past, friends or foe who said my art sucks. It probably did or does, but I don't really care about that anymore. I think about the positives. I had a friend who basically said that if we were perfect all the time then there is nothing to compare ourselves to. We can never say we improved or eclipsed our former work, and there is never any change. It's boring to be perfect from the get go. To never experience the thrill of finally "getting" the anatomy. Even though I'm sure some of us would love to have facility in the arts, I guess this desire is what we all have in common and what we should focus less on. You'd be surprised that some of the most jawdropping artists on conceptart.org feel mediocre and have become rather exacting about their own work. On that level we are plagued by the same feelings of occassional ineptitude. I have to agree though that the more you get your head stuck in art the more the criticisms fade :) Even the ones from yourself.

KoOkY!

Tue, 25 Dec 2007 04:41:32 -0000

Whisper Panthress said: Hi Slipstreme. I will not get into too much editing as I need to go out soon. Apologies if this is lengthy or not very sensible. But I think it's great you want to reapply, try and learn. And if your goal is to get in here and learn, I agree with the advice Rous provided. It will help, especially about practice. If you draw a lot of something it shows, as there is simplification and feel. I also feel that it is important to keep a positive outlook on things. snip

Well put advise Whisper Panthress, I got something out of that myself too even though not directed to me. Though I always thought some level of self debasement is helpful. I get really down on my art and abilities and vocalize them, and some people have said that artists just say they suck in order to get the, "Nooo you're wonderful!" type comments though truly not the case here. I really do think I stink. :) But because I'm comparing myself to the artist that I want to be instead of the doodler that I am. I've seen a lot of artists just stagnate because they've stopped pushing themselves and can get by with mediocre work because they're surrounded by people telling them how great they are. So always need that little voice inside your head saying that you can do better. Hehe.

Slipstreme

Tue, 25 Dec 2007 01:12:34 -0000

Art is not my job, but I know I am going through a phase where I truly believe it is the only thing I am remotely good at, and also I fear that having to work for a living, that I will not have any real time to get better at it. I am a klutz in life, period, in constant pain, and my days in food service/ retail are numbered, but I have lost the desire to go to college as I have no plans for my future (failed out of chemistry, which caused me to quit pre-veterinary), which frankly, terrifies me. I have also pigeonholed myself into this idea that college degree= the only real way to get a career you enjoy. So I have been debating making art my career (I know there is no money in art), which though I am certain I am good at it, I believe I am not good enough. I did do a time when I did commissions and found that I was practically ignored. I am also getting jealous of other people who are getting a whole lot more attention online, whether they are better than me or not, or draw more porn than I do etc. So I believe most of this pessimistic, pissy, whiny, complainy, self destructive, obsessive, emo BS comes from my complete lack of confidence in myself. I have also found that art is my passion. The idea of getting so busy at everything else in life and not having time to really put out some awesome art seriously bugs me, as I have very little success in multi-tasking and time management. I could go on but that is enough about my life. I have already done essentially live-journaling in a non-livejournal thread. So yeah. That about sums it up. But I was hoping that after some many months of trying to get better that I had gotten good enough to have an artspots gallery. I guess that is the problem with trying to gain perfection in something is that there will always be something there to disappoint you. But I also know, that will not stop me from trying.

Whisper Panthress

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:18:38 -0000

Hi Slipstreme. I will not get into too much editing as I need to go out soon. Apologies if this is lengthy or not very sensible. But I think it's great you want to reapply, try and learn. And if your goal is to get in here and learn, I agree with the advice Rous provided. It will help, especially about practice. If you draw a lot of something it shows, as there is simplification and feel. I also feel that it is important to keep a positive outlook on things. You said that you would like others to show you your areas of improvement. That you are quite down on yourself. Well...art isn't supposed to be a trip to self debasement or external encouragement. Others can indeed make you feel like crap or awesome about your work, but the bottom line isn't about popularity. The I'm not good enough, varied enough, or talented enough are myths. All that is real are your ideas and getting them on paper before you croak :) Pro artists do INDEED have to worry about catering to the majority or a style. And that's something to worry about as it is to make ends meet. But for those who are still in school, or still a "hobby" level, we have the luxury to only worry about what we like. And on that note while I happen to be my own worst critic I love the process of creation so much I don't focus on the criticisms. I enjoy art so much I wouldn't trade doing it for the world. Like you I hate going to the library or paying for very expensive art supplies, but I love the expression of my ideas. While I love artspots, it doesn't matter if I got into artspots or not. All that mattered to me was getting these ideas out. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like art has become an occupation for you. Like a job you must do well. Was there some goal you had in mind? A story you would like to tell? An idea you had you wanted on paper? Because honestly there is no black and white in art. For every person who loves your art there is probably someone who will hate it. Especially as you get more practiced and start to express yourself in a favored style. So focus on the need to create, not the need to please others. When you draw a lot it will show and then you can use artspots to showcase the art you want others to see. Hope you keep drawing. And one more thing, I feel artspots favor a feeling of life. Look up animation concepts and the book of ken hultgren. He is imo, my hero and has changed my art from bottom to top. Last I saw the book cost about $9 but it falls apart easily so get a new edition or hardcover if you can.

Slipstreme

Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:37:33 -0000

I'm stopping in the Carnegie library today. Turns out it is not that far away.

Slipstreme

Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:52:56 -0000

I will take a look into the .pdfs you provided. Actually as far as the library is concerned, I just moved into the area so I have yet to figure out where they are (not really a problem) I just however, forgot they exist in a manner of speaking. After I posted my reply, my roommate essentially smacked me in the head by mentioning that I forgot about the library. Unfortunately though I don't see myself drawing much from life any time soon. I can't afford a zoo pass and I don't see the point in shelling out 10 bucks a time to visit when I can get a family pass for 78 for the year (I have four people easy I can drag to the zoo on occasion considering I am polyamorous). None of the friends I sort of know here have pets. I am far enough away from nature, for the most time, I am lucky to see the occasional squirrel or bird that doesn't stay for long. The most I have been doing from life is landscapes and I plan to document the city of Pittsburgh in paint, random physical objects, and maybe, maybe the occasional human (all of which don't belong here). I did draw my dog in FL many times from life when I was able to see her (belongs to parents), and I have drawn people's pets when I got the chance. So sadly animal opportunities are rare, until I can save enough to go to the zoo, at which point I planned on drawing the animals there from the beginning. I used to do that at the zoo in FL I had a pass for from my parents. However, on top of all of that, I suck at time management, so I can't even try to schedule an improvement phase because of life. So I have a feeling it might be another 4 to 8 months before I even get a chance to think I am good enough to apply again. However, what I don't know really is how much I have improved. I tend to focus only on my negative qualities and tend to need others to show me what has gotten better. Hence feeling like crap when you pointed out that anatomy I thought I had down pact was wrong. However if my first application is still saved somewhere would it be possible to compare the two? Because I would at least like to know if I am on the right tract or if I have been following blindly along the wrong path. I did take into account the suggestions I got in email the last time, however now I don't even know if having done that, if I had gotten better in the last few months or so or not. I can't remember the last time I applied. And according to what you said, what I am getting from it is that having a fine eye for detail (ie getting better at coloring, detailing etc, like I know I have through experimentation) isn't worth anything without an eye for anatomy. Sadly, although I can see you saying that the application isn't saved, and that I should show my art to friends and people for critique, I don't get helpful critique, even from artists, in real life. I'm guessing because people are too easily offended or afriad of offending someone else, especially a friend. *edit* answered my own question on critique, I will probably use the forum.

Rousseau Cheetah

Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:10:19 -0000

Forgive me for not being clear. It did look like you used photo references for it. What I was saying is that without good understanding of the underlying structure, you're likely to keep making similar mistakes. The problem with working from photo reference (rather than from life) is that you're seeing a flattened version of something in three dimensions. It's easy to believe a photo, but photos can lie. With understanding of the structure, you can compensate for the things photos leave out. As for the reference books, no one said you have to buy them. Have you tried your local library? Even if the library closest to you doesn't have them, many libraries are set up on a county-wide system and you can request that a book from another library be brought to yours so you can check it out there. A few of the recommended books are a little more obscure, but most are common enough that I would be very surprised if you couldn't find them. Some books can also be found for free online. Check out http://placidchaos.com/AM/index.php/2006/02/21/andrew_loomis He's got all six Andrew Loomis books available as PDFs. "Fun With a Pencil" is a GREAT beginner/intermediate book, but I strongly recommend taking a close look at all of them. The Loomis books aren't on our library list because physical copies are very rare, but fortunately these pdfs are available.

Slipstreme

Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:56:18 -0000

I actually used a lot of photos for reference for that one. However, as far as affording anatomy books I have yet to be able to, and unfortunately, I have a lot of underlaying personal issues that require purchases I have yet to afford, so I can't really say I would ever get a chance to get one worthwhile for a long time. Most seem to be about 20 bucks for cheap, and others more expensive.

Rousseau Cheetah

Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:03:49 -0000

Here's the second image- Using the skull as a guide I sketched in roughly where I thought the eyes, ears, and other features should be. Ideally I would have used a reference of a wolf or other canine and a big cat to get the details perfect. I've had a lot of practice under my belt, though, so I was able to guess fairly accurately based on the underlying bone structure. I recommend trying it both ways and see what works best for you. Even if you prefer to work more from your imagination, though, as I do, continue to go back to reference for practice whenever possible. Draw from real animals at the zoo whenever possible, but working from photos can be good practice, too, so long as you don't start using them as a crutch. Your other images all have similar problems. If you've applied once already, I'm sure you got some recommendations of some books to check out that will help you improve your anatomy and general structure. If you haven't looked at those yet, I encourage you to do so. Even the best artists are constantly working to learn more to improve their work, and anatomy is one of the most important things you can learn! If you want more books to check out, the library tab at the top of every page on ArtSpots and Jaxpad has many good recommendations, some of which are more advanced than others. Hope that helps!

Rousseau Cheetah

Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:52:08 -0000

I've got a two part reply for you. What I'm seeing is a sharp eye for certain details, but the underlying anatomy is mushy. This first attachment will hopefully show you what I mean. I quickly did a google search and found a canine skull and a sabertooth cat skull for reference, and sketched in a skull over your drawing that was somewhere between the two. We're not looking for exactly perfect anatomy, there's certainly room to play around with it and combine species. What we're looking for is a deeper understanding of how that anatomy is put together. Being able to render every hair realistically means nothing if the cohesive whole doesn't make anatomical sense. This is a common problem in applications, not just yours, so don't worry too much about it. It can be corrected fairly easily with lots of practice and study of both human and animal anatomy.

Slipstreme

Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:19:55 -0000

Anyway, these are the ones I am concerned about. http://www.furaffinity.net/view/918905/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/918838/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/915886/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/688001/ (the "sketch") http://us-p.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Slipstreme/General%20Audience/Tara.jpg (scanner ate my details, but shows the best anatomy of my clean art) Unfortunately, of the five I chose, I don't have anything that qualifies as a good sketch. It seems impossible to scan graphite with my scanner. Also I know I lack background in most of the ones I chose, but the ones that do have good background are wildlife art more than anything, which I don't know if are allowed here. Also I am wondering if my presentation of the character Slipstreme may have helped me get rejected last time as well as anatomy issues. Slipstreme (the realistic picture, submitted last time was a more toony piece) is a sabretooth character somewhere between canine and feline. I know with the application there is no way to make comments to point this out. Also I have noticed how my scanner likes to sap most of my details out of my art, especially as of late, as it seems to be dying. Thank you.